Episode 5: Customer-Centricity: The Key to Business Growth in the Digital Landscape

Episode Description:

In this episode, we explore the crucial role of customer service in driving business growth and success. Join us as we dive into a Discovered London speech by Jo Causon, CEO of The Institute of Customer Service, where she emphasizes the need for organizations to prioritize the customer experience.

Causon highlights that customer service extends beyond numbers. Employee well-being emerges as a crucial factor that impacts customer perception. In fact, a remarkable 20% of consumers refuse to buy from organizations they believe mistreat their staff. It becomes evident that organizations must consider the holistic impact of their actions on both employees and customers.

She reveals that companies with above-average customer satisfaction, driven by a board-level commitment to the customer experience, enjoy remarkable financial benefits. These organizations not only achieve 10% higher profitability over a five to eight-year period but also experience up to 5% higher revenue and an astonishing 114% increase in productivity.

Discover how organizations can adapt to meet evolving customer expectations and build lasting brand loyalty by demonstrating care for both customers and employees.

Guest BIO:

Jo Causon, CEO, Institute for Customer Service

Jo is adamant that there is a good reason why businesses ranking in the top tiers of customer service are in similar good positions financially. Far from being simply transactional, Jo believes that good customer service and economic success are inextricably linked. 

References:

• The Institute of Customer Service: https://www.instituteofcustomerservice.com/
• UKSCI – The state of customer satisfaction in the UK, January 2022: https://www.instituteofcustomerservice.com/product/ukcsi-the-state-of-customer-satisfaction-in-the-uk-january-2022/

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Rachel Tonner: I’m really pleased to welcome to the stage Jo Causon, who is CEO of the Institute of Customer Service. I’ve had the pleasure of seeing you speak before, and we’re in for a real treat because this part of the customer journey doesn’t get enough attention at e-commerce conferences.

[00:00:15] So, over to you, Jo.

[00:00:16] Jo Causon: Thank you so much for inviting me, so I’m gonna probably just cover a whole range of things which are about the strategic nature of service, how good customer service is in the UK at the moment. Some of the challenges we’re seeing, some of the customer behaviours, why this matters.

[00:00:32] So for how many of you are in the audience, this is a bit of audience participation. I dunno whether you’ve eaten yet, but how many of you know about the institute?

[00:00:40] Okay. Not enough. Okay. Let’s, let’s just deal with that, first of all.

[00:00:43] So we’re a professional body. Everything we do is to help organizations to get better at customer service. We pan sector. So the types of brands that would be members of the institute in the retail space would be people like John Lewis, Waitrose, Boots, Sainsbury’s, but actually, we’re also representative in [00:01:00] manufacturing, in the B2B world, in financial services, across the whole range. And that’s really important because it enables you to benchmark outside a sector. And when people ask themselves what their favourite brands are, that often it’s not within the sector. We tend to think about organizations that we really respect. For our sins too, we are the secretariat of the all-parliamentary group for customer service. This means that we’re trying to overarchingly help more boards in the UK and more businesses in the UK and more politicians in the UK understand the importance of customer service and the impact that it has.

[00:01:36] Now, if you don’t take anything away from my speech other than this one slide, please take it. Because for too long now, many organizations I don’t think really understand the importance of customer service to the bottom line of their organizations. It often ends up being the contact centre’s responsibility.

[00:01:52] So if I shared with you that those organizations over a longer period of time, so these are the organizations where the board is [00:02:00] really focusing on the customer experience and the board is taking responsibility for it. So they’re not seeing it as a functional issue or another department. They’re owning it.

[00:02:09] And where they do that and where we see that run across the whole of the customer journey, those organizations have above-average customer satisfaction. And over a five to eight-year period, they’ll have a 10% higher level of profitability, so EBITDA, they’ll have up to 5% higher levels in terms of revenue, and they’ll have 114% higher levels of productivity. So this stuff matters. Okay. To the actual financial well-being of your organization.

[00:02:38] Little bit of context of the environment that we are working in at the moment. All of you, I’m sure have already talked about this this morning, but in my career, I’ve never seen a time when there are so many different things coming together in a bit of a perfect storm.

[00:02:50] So on the back of obviously Brexit, on the back of Covid, on the back of the cost of living crisis, I never expected to see another war in Europe. All of [00:03:00] these things are having major changes in terms of our supply chain issues. I’m sure all of you talked about that this morning about recruitment and retention, making sure that we are securing and recruiting the right staff for our businesses.

[00:03:12] The importance actually of well-being and some really interesting data from The Institute shows that actually, well-being is becoming more important, not just from an employee engagement point of view, but from your customer’s viewpoint. 20% of us actually won’t buy from an organization if we don’t think that they’re treating their staff well.

[00:03:30] So there’s some really interesting kind of changes that I would really kind of pinpoint.

[00:03:35] ESG, lots have been done around the “E” and the “S” not much is being done around Governance. But we know that there’s a huge correlation between customer satisfaction and trust. So the more I trust the organization, the more likely I am to buy from that organization, and the more likely I am to recommend that organization. And as customers, we’re watching. Our expectations of you in terms of transparency, your key [00:04:00] messages, that the experience, the rubber hitting the road is even more important, I would argue, than it has ever been.

[00:04:07] So can I ask you, has anyone heard of the UK Customer Satisfaction Index? Okay, so The Institute does something, and we’ve been doing this since 2009, and we track customer satisfaction across the UK and we track that across 13 different industry sectors, so not just retail across the whole piece.

[00:04:27] And what I can tell you is what the graphs that you can see behind me, this is how overall satisfaction is happening. Fell off a cliff after the last recession. Because what happens is organizations start to cut their customer experience and their customer service. As a result of that, doesn’t happen immediately, but it starts to stall and fall, and I’m really concerned that we’re starting to see that again.

[00:04:50] In the last UKCSI, which was in January, you can get this report, you can go to our website and get it free. Okay? 16.5% have that many experiences of

[00:05:00] problems in the UK. So if you think about that, that means as organizations we’re spending about 20% of our time every month rectifying issues, problems, and complaints caused by us as organizations.

[00:05:15] If you stick a figure on that, and I’m quite obsessed with figures, that amounts to nearly 11 billion pounds every month trying to rectify customer service issues. So getting it right first time, really understanding and focusing on the customer experience, the end customer experience across the board has never been in my mind more important.

[00:05:38] And I’ve already touched on some of these things. So, satisfaction with complaint handling has stalled. We got a lot better at resolving the issues and problems prior to January of this year. But what I’d be arguing is it’s not about the transactional delivery, it is about what happens upstream. It’s about product design. It’s about how we’re [00:06:00] navigating the website. It’s about the aftercare service. And you will all know that from your own experiences. But just keep in mind that huge figure of nearly, well over 11 billion pounds every month. And we do know that there’s a clear correlation, as I’ve said to financial performance, but brand loyalty, for those organizations as well that are scoring, nines and tens out of 10, they’ll have a 50% higher level of loyalty.

[00:06:27] Okay. So all of this stuff from a service point of view really, really matters. And I’m usually asked about which sectors are the best-performing sectors. Well, good for us sat in this room. Retail certainly comes up as one of the best-performing sectors, but there’s a big range in terms of performance across that.

[00:06:45] And as I’ve said, what is worrying is the year-on-year decline, which actually all of us should be aware of. Who do you think is number one in the UK? Gimme some names.

[00:06:58] Audience Member: Amazon.

[00:06:58] Jo Causon: Okay. They’re in the top [00:07:00] 10. Who else?

[00:07:01] Audience Member: John Lewis.

[00:07:02] Jo Causon: John Lewis is in the top 10 still. Might be interesting to see whether they stay there. Any others?

[00:07:08] Audience Member: Apple.

[00:07:08] Jo Causon: Apple are close in the top 50.

[00:07:11] Audience Member: Marks & Spencer.

[00:07:12] Jo Causon: Marks & Spencer are in there.

[00:07:15] But your number one brand is First Direct. Who banks with First Direct? Okay. Would you agree with that?

[00:07:21] Audience Member: Yeah.

[00:07:22] Jo Causon: Yeah. Okay. And have they been consistently good at delivering that level of service to you?

[00:07:26] Audience Member: Haven’t been there long.

[00:07:27] Jo Causon: You haven’t been there long. Has anyone else been there a long time? Yes, and? And Right. So you’ve stayed, right? And there’s another person that’s stayed. 30 years, right, so the brand promise has been consistent and you’ve stayed with them as a result of that. Yeah. Chris Pitt will be delighted. I know Chris really well, but it’s a really important point about the consistency of that experience.

[00:07:48] And when you talk to Chris, he’ll tell you the three most important people in his organization other than himself, are the Customer Experience Director, himself, and his CFO. So there’s a really [00:08:00] interesting lesson for me about how many Customer Experience Directors we have on the boards of our organizations, too?

[00:08:06] So I just want you to keep that in mind. Now some really interesting consumer behaviours. We track consumer behaviour, look at what’s been going on in terms of consumer behaviours and since Covid, I think there’s a few interesting pieces. So we’ve always had a growth in digital and clearly that has continued and been driven even harder during the whole COVID experience.

[00:08:28] But there is a need for that to be balanced. And what I mean by that, is really understanding which parts of the journey are best delivered digitally, and which bits actually you may need, have a human intervention to. Speed, connectivity, simplicity. All of those things have become increasingly important, but so has authenticity.

[00:08:49] So has doing the right thing, so has actually demonstrating, that you really care about your customers. In the UKCSI, we track not just functional, but

[00:09:00] we track ethics, emotional connection, all of that sense of actually this brand cares about me. And I think that’s becoming more important. So your footprint and how you are showing up for your customers every day is gonna become, in my mind, even more important.

[00:09:16] Cost of living challenges. How much outreach are we providing in terms of supporting people? How do we help them through that? We’ve also seen, sadly, an increase in hostility. Any brands in this room towards customer service professionals, are you seeing that and you are dealing with? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:09:33] So on that, The Institute runs a campaign that’s called “Service with Respect.” Go and look at our website. We’re trying to get as many people to sign up to actually trying to drive that. Much more around reassurance, and this transcends every age group, which is interesting. It’s across all ages, including younger people. So the need for reassurance, the need to feel more connected, and actually much more around my family, localness, [00:10:00] upcycling, recycling, all of those things have certainly grown in importance over the last period.

[00:10:08] The biggest thing I would talk about is polarization. So what we’re seeing is a very polarized customer group. So 45% of people, as the slide shows behind me, are feeling very positive about their financial well-being. 15%, very negative. And then this large slug in between, which feels about average.

[00:10:29] Okay. That hasn’t changed much at the moment. And if I asked you whether you are having problems with debt or debt collection, is anyone seeing that come through yet? Or not particularly, any defaulting or anything on those yet? No. But as you can see here, 30% of people hold no personal debt, but 26% of people think that that is gonna get worse.

[00:10:51] So there’s a really interesting, I think, dichotomy about what’s going on in terms of personal wealth, but people are thinking more carefully [00:11:00] about what they spend their money on, and that’s not just a cost of living issue. There’s a bit more thinking about, you know, I own 15 leather jackets. Do I need a 16th? Yeah. How many pairs of shoes do I need? Much more around experiences. So how are you actually creating that experience for me rather than the transactional activity? So you’ve gotta be good at the experience, not just getting it delivered on time in a fashion that I may want.

[00:11:28] So things that we’ve done more of in the last two years and things that I’m going to do more of. So as you can see here, I’m buying things that last longer. I’m being more thoughtful about whether I need to buy this. I’m looking at things that actually impact my health and wellbeing, or my family’s health and wellbeing. So some of the kind of key things, making lasting memories. Yeah. So those are some of the things which we’re starting to see. So there is quite a shift, I would say, in consumer behaviour. And [00:12:00] that plays out in other research that the institute is also seeing and demonstrating.

[00:12:05] Now, we asked and you would say this, wouldn’t you? So the first bit is pays all employees a living wage. Look how many people are actually saying that. Well, I can’t imagine anybody wouldn’t feel that, but it’s quite an interesting piece. So these are the top things that are mattering.

[00:12:20] ‘Using local suppliers, so the local bit has become an even bigger issue, and when we have so many supply chain issues, that is quite important.

[00:12:28] My local company, has a strong commitment to environmental sustainability, and I’ve already mentioned that 20% of customers saying that they’ve stopped using an organization because they don’t believe that actually, it’s treating its employees well. So there are some interesting shifts that I would, you know, point you towards.

[00:12:47] Now I was asked to talk more specifically about digital given, where we are. So let me just share some of the findings and some of the research that we’ve done around the digital experience.

[00:12:58] I think this is quite [00:13:00] interesting. So 73% of us see ourselves as confident users of tech. No issue at all. This week I had the privilege of going to the House of Lords to actually give evidence to a select committee on digital exclusion. So 15% of people do feel digitally excluded. And a whopping great big 23% of us are usually helping somebody else to deal with their platform if they’re feeling that they are excluded or not able to do things. So there’s an interesting piece around how we manage that, how we educate, how we support, and how we signpost.

[00:13:34] So, I think it’s quite interesting about which our preferred channels are too, and which channels irritate the hell out of us.

[00:13:41] So probably not surprising, we’re very irritated by chatbots. And the reason why we get very irritated is because we get into a circle of doom. Yeah, and rather than having a trap door that says, “Obviously, Joe, you’ve been in this very irritating cycle for the last 20 minutes,” and rather than just cutting me off and asking me to

[00:14:00] Ring again, we need to get out of that chatbot, that doom and to a number and say, “I see that you’ve been in here 20 minutes. I apologize for that and how can I help you or get it resolved?”

[00:14:10] Literally, I had a shower while waiting. I’m being told the whole time, your call is important to me. Okay. So, all of these things irritate the hell out of us, and all of these things are having an impact on your brand promise and your reputation, which I’ve already shown you, is really important.

[00:14:27] Now in terms of artificial intelligence, and obviously it’s a really interesting and hot topic at the moment. And I think we are in a very big transition. All right. So I think this is something in the next three to five years that will become really, really interesting. But let me share with you what we’re happy about and what we’re not happy about.

[00:14:48] So from an artificial intelligence point of view, the bottom line is anything that’s transactional, anything that makes that process easy for me. Absolutely, fill your boots, make it [00:15:00] digital, ensure that the AI is, is sensible, responds to all of those activities, no issues at all.

[00:15:05] When it starts to get into things that are intensely personal to me, then actually I’ll get a bit more worried about it. So, as you can see down the bottom here, analyzing my emotional state. You know, and the fact that I’ve got this real sense that you are spying on me or you are collecting data without me knowing you are collecting data or actually anything around my finances, I’m much, much more anxious. So thinking about that, let alone the whole area around fraud, which is another key concern that we worry about in terms of giving information regarding financial well-being.

[00:15:44] So, and the other aspects too that we’re more conscious of is when you pretend to me. So I need you to be honest, that actually it is artificial intelligence that I’m talking to, not a human being. We get very irritated when, [00:16:00] you know, it’s made to feel kind of a bit fake in that experience, and that is definitely coming to the fore too.

[00:16:06] So we’re very happy to use the tech. We’re very happy to engage with it. But think carefully about what you’re doing with the data, why you are collecting it, and don’t just collect it for the sake of the fact that you wanna do it for your marketing activity. I need to know that I’m gonna get something out of this.

[00:16:23] If I’m prepared to give you anything that is deeply personal to me, then there better be a good return. I’ve already mentioned this next one in terms of chatbots, which is the biggest issue at 17%, as you can see there. And our preferred channels will depend on the issues that we actually have, and I find it quite interesting you know, in many ways you’d think that email is old hat, but if I’ve got a problem or a complaint, I need to make sure that I’ve got the reassurance that I’ve got that, that history of it, which is a reason I think why people still will revert to that. So interesting, looking at [00:17:00] different channels and different ways of responding.

[00:17:03] And then, you know, in terms of thinking about the challenges that we’re facing from a digital point of view. For me, the most important thing is to, find from a customer’s viewpoint what is simple and what is complex and those experiences. The more complex the experience, the less trusting I am. So really thinking that through, really telling me why this is gonna be of benefit to me, the whole data privacy, what you are doing with my data, do not underestimate that.

[00:17:35] And I actually think that you will see people that will just not engage. And when we looked at the people that don’t want to engage digitally, there is certainly a group, as we were saying, that can’t, but there’s quite a group that actually doesn’t want to. And the reason why they don’t want to is they either don’t feel confident or they actually don’t trust you.

[00:17:54] So those are some important things that we need to think about when we’re delivering or building that whole [00:18:00] experience. And also, I would argue that if your digital experience is so brilliant, I don’t want to talk to you. But if it isn’t, oh my God, do I want to talk to you? So that is the thing for me, it’s not about, I don’t want the digital experience, it’s because your digital experience doesn’t work.

[00:18:18] I won’t bore you with how I spent at least 45 minutes in my morning with a large utility provider trying to solve something for my mum that they kept telling me it was important and it clearly wasn’t and they kept phoning me, not really allowing it long enough to be able to pick up, and then I went back into this ridiculous loop. So just think about the implications that actually order that is having.

[00:18:42] So, for which experience would you most value speaking to a human being? Dealing with a complex issue? Making a complaint?

[00:18:50] There’s something still about the fact that we want to be able to tell you why we’re frustrated, not just AI dealing with a sensitive or personal issue.[00:19:00]

[00:19:00] Okay. And then anything that’s learning about benefits, anything that is around advice, quite happy. You know, we’re quite happy. We all are very comfortable using tech from that point of view. Booking anything that’s process orientated, is no issue at all. But as I said to you when we start to get into the more sensitive areas or the more personal areas, then that becomes more of an issue.

[00:19:25] And then in terms of thinking about digital exclusion, because this is becoming quite an issue, I do think that we should always enable a route to be able to speak to a human being. And that doesn’t mean to say that I’m gonna take that route, but there is something about always being able to think, “Well actually, if all else fails, I can’t talk to somebody that is knowledgeable and is there and does care about me.”

[00:19:48] Sharing best practices, understanding different, you know, partnerships that can actually help with some of these points. I don’t know how well you test your technology. Do you test those with excluded groups? [00:20:00] There’s a clear thing for me about ensuring that we actually are, if I was true, when I actually looked at this survey, about 57% of organizations owned up to really testing it.

[00:20:11] So testing it in terms of from a digitally excluded point of view, I think is important. And for me, the future’s going to be a brilliant blend of the ability to be able to use the. with also digital. So digital eagles, the whole sense of, you know, if I’m actually in the future, teach me to fish to help me to use your tech, my tech in a better way. And there’ll be a real growth in that.

[00:20:38] And then I think the final thing that I just wanted to leave with you is above all, whether it’s digital, whether it’s physical, whether whatever the manifestation is, I think in terms of building your brands and then building your importance to your customers, being absolutely crystal clear what your purpose is, who you are here to serve. Why you are relevant, [00:21:00] and I always ask ourselves, if we weren’t here, who would miss us? And focus much more on the impact that you’re looking to create.

[00:21:08] Most organizations focus on activities and they measure activity. How long do I have to wait for something? But actually going back to where we started this conversation was around how you make me feel is as important as the actual transaction that I am going through. If I feel valued, I’ll be more patient with you. If you don’t care about me, then this is just a transaction and I’ll be nothing more than a transaction to you.

[00:21:35] Every time I talk to Amazon, the whole thing is around how can we become more human? How can I make sure that I actually build because they are brilliant. 12 minutes is their fastest delivery in terms of a parcel. But how do I make myself more human? And I would always ask you in this context, just to keep that in mind. And then from The Institute’s perspective, if we can help in any way we will.[00:22:00]

[00:22:00] But there are some key things that I would just really get you to think about. Think about your levels of employee engagement. Every CEO I talked to at the moment, it’s got major issues in recruitment and retention. Think about how you are showing up. Think about your ethical purpose. Think about how all of that links and what we’re trying to deliver in terms of the end game.

[00:22:23] And that really is probably the key thing that I want to cover with you. Thank you very much.

[00:22:32] Audience Member #1: How do we compare the UK to the rest of Europe or the rest of the world? So, you know, your presentation was very much UK.

[00:22:39] Jo Causon: Yeah, okay. Yeah. So overall it’s really interesting the UK fairs in terms of Europe pretty well. We did a big piece of research that looked at us, so it’ll be different for different sectors and it’ll be culturally different, but actually, the UK does not do badly. Other top performing countries will be places like Germany and the Nordics do quite well too. But across the [00:23:00] piece, the UK doesn’t do.

[00:23:02] Audience Member #1: Thank you.

[00:23:03] Rachel Tonner: I’ve actually got a quick question for you if that’s okay. So in terms of Amazon, right? Customer service at Amazon, to me feels very, very bad. And they want to be more human, yes. But they make it so hard to get in touch with them. Yeah. I’m surprised to hear their members and I’m happy to hear that they’re working on it. Do you have any other comments to say about them or, you know?

[00:23:27] Jo Causon: No, no, no. I’m very happy too. So I think it is really interesting, and one of the big things that I’ve had recent communication with them over is, right, we’re gonna stick our telephone number on them right on the front of their website. Because we’re gonna work on the basis that we get so good that you don’t actually have to phone us. But if you want to back to that point and something goes so badly wrong, you can. And it is really interesting. So when I go, they’ll have lots of very bright people really trying to focus on, they’re very good at how they use their data. They’re very clever in terms of thinking about that data. But I think [00:24:00] there is more of an acceptance and an awareness that actually, some of these, what we would call human or software elements of the customer experience are becoming much more important. Because as we get less money, the fact that I can buy it cheap is not necessarily my driver anymore.

[00:24:17] My driver is actually buying things that matter to me and that will solve my issue, my problem, or whatever I’m doing. And I’m spending less. And I don’t know whether people are finding that, but I’m much more discerning about where I will spend my money. So the fact that it’s cheap isn’t the answer.

[00:24:35] Rachel Tonner: Or fast, I suppose.

[00:24:36] Jo Causon: Or fast. Yeah. And I am prepared to wait actually if the experience overall is good. One of the biggest irritations during COVID was when you bought something online and then you got to the very last bit and then it told you that you’re gonna have to wait four months for your bit of furniture to turn up.

[00:24:51] Well, yeah, thank you. Why didn’t you tell me that on, on the first page? I know it sounds really obvious, but these things really [00:25:00] matter. And actually, my dwell time, you will know that I haven’t got time anymore and I’ve become very irritated. So the whole kind of chatbot thing too is just, you know, I won’t deal with you.

[00:25:10] And that in a very competitive environment is gonna become increasingly important, let alone your reliance on suppliers to deliver for me. And I blame you. Not Evie or whoever might be delivering, you know, that experience.

[00:25:28] Rachel Tonner: It’s really interesting you mentioned the delivery time and the weight.

[00:25:32] I was speaking to a retailer in the US called Conn’s, and they worked with us to look at their inventory levels and look at where the inventory was based, put actual locations within their product catalogue, and then the search results and the categories actually reordered based on that person’s location and when they wanted to get the item. And they said they’ve just skyrocketed in their customer satisfaction and revenue, and it’s just brilliant that one detail.

[00:25:59] Jo Causon: Yeah. [00:26:00] Because they’ve listened, they’ve understood, and they’ve reacted to that.

[00:26:03] Rachel Tonner: Yeah.

[00:26:04] Jo Causon: And I think the other thing too, which is always very difficult, I think we are almost in a funny way of higher expectations when it’s digital. And what I mean by that is, there’s a perception, well you’ve got all my data, you understand what my preferences are, you’ve collected this, so for God’s sake, make sure you are doing something back for me in a much more personalized state.

[00:26:25] Because you can, you know everything about me. Whereas in a physical form, when I turn up to that shop, you don’t. So I think there’s something really about it, you need to be better at it.

[00:26:34] Rachel Tonner: Yeah. One more question from the audience.

[00:26:36] Audience Member #2: Thank you very much. This is exciting. I was gonna ask kind of about those negative experiences that you said. It all relates to things that the customer isn’t happy about. Do you think that brands are doing that on purpose in terms of it taking forever to get through to complain about things? Because in my opinion, whenever I have had a complaint about something, it’s gotten to the point where I’m [00:27:00] so bothered about having to wait all that time, I’ve forgotten what I was complaining about in the first place. And I’ve given up and I’ve not even made that complaint. Is there a way that one, do you think that’s happening? And two, is there a way that we can educate brands to do that in better ways so that their customers aren’t as angry in the first place or, uh, having all of that as a better experience?

[00:27:20] Jo Causon: Okay, so I think two things are going on. I think our tolerance to wait for things is, when there’s something wrong by the way, it has shortened. Okay, so we are less tolerant. And going back to the environment that we’re working in now, we are probably more anxious. There’s a lot more kind of that playing on our minds. So we’re probably faster to, um, respond, not so well if something, you know, happens. In terms of do I believe that organizations are deliberately doing it, sad to say, I think it’s incompetence in a lot of ways. Because what [00:28:00] we’re seeing is we’re on, you know, and as I said, we’re in transition. So when the tech works really, really well, it’s brilliant, but a lot of the time it’s not quite as smart as we need it to be.

[00:28:13] And in many cases, organizations have relied on that. They may have had a view of digital-first, so they’ve ripped out everything else and there’s not enough support around it. So I don’t think it’s necessarily, well from smart organizations, it definitely isn’t, a premeditated impact. But the fact that we’ve got 16.5%, that’s 3% higher than pre-COVID problems and issues and challenges going on, that’s costing 11 billion pounds to rectify.

[00:28:41] So, if it is a tactic if it is, it’s a very silly tactic because it’s costing us a lot of money to resolve it. So whether that’s answered your question.

[00:28:51] Audience Member #2: Thanks. Thank you.

[00:28:52] Rachel Tonner: Thank you so much. Thank you.

[00:28:54] Jo Causon: Thank you.